Predictable and repeatable.
It might sound boring, but when it comes to creating systems, that's what you want in order to ensure you and your staff create the same positive result over and over again.
Your marketing is no different.
Today's guest, John Jantsch, the author of the popular book, Duct Tape Marketing, has some tips on how you can fine tune your marketing efforts.
During this interview, you'll learn...
The power of building a 90-day plan from your marketing strategy
Why it's important to know who your ideal clients are & what your core promise is to them
The importance of focus and delegation when creating your marketing system
To learn more about John, go here.
Michael Palmer: 01:26 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host Michael Palmer and today's show is going to be extraordinary. Our guest is a marketing consultant, speaker and bestselling author of Duct Tape Marketing: Duct Tape selling the commitment engine and the referral engine. His Duct Tape marketing methodology is used by marketing consultants worldwide. I am honored to have him on the show. John Jantsch, welcome to the podcast.
John Jantsch: 01:56 Hey, thanks for having me. Now I have to spend since you said it was gonna be extraordinary, I had, now I have to spend the first like two or three minutes lowering people's expectations.
MP: 02:04 Hello? Hi. I doubt that will happen. They should keep them high because I have definitely consumed your content and it is rock star quality. So, John, it's so great to have you here. You're making a massive difference for small, medium sized businesses all over the world, helping them attract great clients and build their businesses. So you are definitely a hero in our mind over here. But John, for those who have not consumed your information, why don't we start off by sharing your career journey that is, that is led you up to the point of how you became a worldwide leader in business marketing.
JJ: 02:45 So I started my own marketing consulting firm actually about 28 years ago. And like a lot of people, I, I decided I wanted to work for myself and had no real plan. And uh, you know, somebody said they needed marketing. I said, sure I can, I can do that. A few years in, I kind of found that I had a mix of clients and I kind of found that I really enjoyed working with small business owners, but they were kind of challenging in some ways. I mean, they had the same problems and needs as much larger organizations, but certainly never the same budgets or even attention spans. So at one point I decided what I needed to do if I wanted to work with small businesses, was to create a very systematic, almost product like approach where I could walk in and say, here's what I'm going to do. Here's what you're going to do here. The results we hope we can get.
JJ: 03:25 By the way, here's what it costs. And that was really the genesis of Duct Tape marketing. I had thought, if I'm going to create this system, I've got to give it a kind of product sounding name. And what's funny is that in an attempt to solve my greatest frustration, I think I tapped what is still today one of the greatest frustrations for a lot of small business owners. It's very difficult to buy marketing services in a very comprehensive way. I mean, everybody is selling a piece of the puzzle. I mean, even the, you know, the advertising folks, the yellow pages folks are now, you know, chipping away at pieces of, of the marketing, uh, channel. And so this, this approach, if somebody walking in and saying, here's exactly what you get, here's exactly what it costs, I think was very eye opening. And, and that's really the, in a lot of ways the big idea of Duct Tape marketing is that marketing is a system.
JJ: 04:15 So I filled my practice very quickly and started writing about it online. Um, really as a way to just market by own business and started having consultants, uh, in different parts of the country, North America. And then eventually the world contacted me and started saying, hey, we like that approach to, uh, how can we start using it? And that was really a, when the duct tape marketing consultant network was born. And then we now have about 150 marketing consultants, independent marketing consultants around the world that are installing the duct tape marketing system and thousands of small businesses at any given time.
MP: 04:48 Wow. It's, it's remarkable. And I just love that you built a business based on your own need. And now that same system is helping other consultants all over the planet. We love to talk about the system and, and process on this podcast. And you did mention systems. Why do you think predictable and repeatable marketing systems are required for small businesses?
JJ: 05:19 Well, I think systems are the key to any business. And frankly, you know, most people get that they, they typically have systems to do whatever it is. The work is done, you know, to get the bills paid. I mean a lot of the various elements of their business. But if for some reason that there's this kind of lingering idea that that marketing has to be this creative made up, you know, innovative thing that you can't really repeat. And I think that that kind of myth is what stops folks from doing something that's very predictable, very repeatable. And it doesn't mean that there's no innovation that you don't have great ideas, that you don't test things and then decide, well gosh, this approach for whatever reason works a lot better than this approach. But it's, it's the way in which you go about it. It's the way in which you start everything with strategy and then build your 90-day plan out from that strategy as opposed to just reacting to the idea of the week, which unfortunately is, is a lot of people's definition of marketing.
JJ: 06:21 You know, if you were sitting in front of a bookkeeper, they've got a couple of clients but they want to scale their business, they want to attract more clients, where would you start? Well, the very first thing we do with every client is, you know, who can you help? Now I know that unfortunately sounds like a really broad question. Well, anybody who needs bookkeeping, and that's unfortunately where a lot of people start. But if you start, if you take that bookkeeper and you look at what are their ideal clients look like, what are the challenges that they have? What are the ways that they work? Because I think, you know, most of us can, can make a list of all the clients we don't want or all the attributes of clients we don't want. Um, and I think we rarely sit down and narrow our focus to the, to the ideal client that we do want.
JJ: 07:08 Um, and, and sometimes that's just, I like working with this kind of business, or I like working with people who have these values, but a lot of it has to do with this is, you know, in a bookkeeper's world, they're, they're typically going after a B2B, you know, arrangement there. They're dealing with businesses, businesses come in all shapes and sizes and, and behaviors and dysfunctions. And I think that that it's really important for you to understand, you know, what's the type of business or what's the type of challenge of businesses having that I can help and enjoy doing the work. Um, and I know that you know, sounds a little simplistic, but it's amazing when, you know, I, I take that bookkeeper who's got 20 or 30 clients, they can always identify five that they wish they had more of. And so in a lot of ways, you know, that's what we're talking about doing is kind of narrowing your focus to that ideal client.
MP: 07:58 Now one of the things that we typically find is that if we can identify that ideal client, there's probably a reason they're ideal. And so we want to really figure out, you know, what is it that we do uniquely that that makes them ideal, that makes them happy, that makes them want to go out and talk about the great experience they're having with us. And a lot of times, you know, that's the second part. So we identify who their ideal client is, but then we want to identify, you know, what's the promise, what's the core message that we want to go out there and start repeating, you know, put at the top of the fold on our website so that we can attract others who want that same very same thing. And I'll give you a quick example. We had a client in, it's a tree service and um, so hopefully your bookkeepers can, you know, relate to tree service and stocking trees up here.
JJ: 08:49 You got it. Absolutely. So, um, but, but the, this was a company that, um, that had been around for a long time. Third Generation. There were local. So all of their messaging was about we're local and we're family owned. And while that's a really positive, great message, we went and we looked at all of the great reviews that they had, which were essentially, you know, so essentially like interviewing your clients because they're, they're leaving these things unsolicited. Um, so they're, you know, they're telling the truth and most of the reviews said they showed up when they said they were going to and the cleaned up the job site impeccably. And so all of a sudden, you know, we show the Mat and while the family message, you know, doesn't want, we don't want to bury that what your clients appreciate and value. Maybe more than that. Ours is a couple of little things that you just do because that's what your dad and your grandpa did. Um, and, and that's what we have to make sure that we're communicating. And so it changed all of their messaging and, and really started attracting or, or at least helping them attract people that those things mattered. And, and unfortunately,
JJ: 09:53 competitors we're not doing.
MP: 09:54 I love that story.
MP: 10:04 I think there's a lot to be learned a, from understanding what your clients are saying about you and then looking at that objectively to say what, what exactly is it that they value working with me? And what a great story. I mean, leaving the job site clean in this day and age, the likelihood is if you've ever had it done the opposite way would have been a very powerful message for the marketplace.
JJ: 10:29 Yeah, and we have a couple of processes. I mean, if you've got a lot of reviews, take some time and read through those. You'll see some recurring themes. I can almost guarantee it. Uh, but short of that, what we typically do is we will try to get six or eight clients of, of a client and, and sit down with them and interview them and ask them those questions like, okay, what do they do that others don't? And then push a little bit like when they say, well, they provide good service. Well you, you've got to push and say, well, what does good service look like to you or my favorite? Um, tell me a story about a time we provided great service and then you'll start hearing those themes that probably ought to be front and center in your marketing message.
MP: 11:06 Beautiful. And I think that's really where the value of your consultants there, your, your network of consultants come in, is that often it's difficult to hear and listen to people talk about your own company. Whereas someone who has an outsider's view, they can hear different things and see different things and ask different questions than maybe you would if it was your own company. So I'm sure that's a very powerful process. But number one, it starts with if you had to do it and you just wanted to start, one would be to just start talking and asking questions of your customer. What is it that you value of what we do? And bring that into if you can see a common theme, bring that into your marketing message.
JJ: 11:46 Yeah. And don't be afraid if you think that things seem kind of small. Um, you know, showing up when you say you're going to show up seems for a lot of people like the barrier to entry. But unfortunately, it is a huge competitive advantage in a lot of industries.
MP: 12:01 Hmm. Absolutely. It's excellent. So, John, when you have your customers sitting in front of you, you've, you've understood, you've talked about you helped them recraft their marketing message. Once a person has a good solid focus on their marketing message, what's the next step? There are so many different ops, you know, social media, there's advertising, there's like you mentioned yellow pages, so many different places, so many different, uh, really new things to do to market your business. Where, where does one start?
JJ1: 12:38 Well, there are a couple of avenues. I mean, first where do your ideal customers, remember we talked about them first, you know, where do they hang out? What do they read? Are they on Facebook? Are they on LinkedIn? I mean, that's sort of an obvious thing, but, but as you're trying to prune down, um, the, and I should have used that as an example with my tree desperately flowing here with the analogy. Yes. But, uh, if you're trying to prune down the fact that, I mean, we were routinely talking about 16 different channels now. Um, and so, you know, if you're overwhelmed and you're thinking, well, I can only play in two or three places, um, first and foremost, you know, what's the highest priority as far as where your prospects hang out? Uh, the second thing is, especially if somebody has been around for a while, I love to look at, you know, a lot of times we, we have a tendency to want to go to the new thing and we underestimate the value of the thing that's actually working for us.
JJ: 13:30 But what I mean by that is that, you know, I have a lot of organizations in true, truthfully, this is uh, this is really common of, of small businesses that they are built one of two ways or maybe a combination of these two ways. They are typically built because the founder of the company was pretty good at going out and talking to people and selling. Um, and the second way is their customers like them. And they talked about that. And so they got, you know, a lot of word of mouth and referrals. And yet you find rarely find a business that says, you know, what, how can we take sales, our sales channel and our referral channel and use some of these new things to amplify those. So for example, when we come into a business and we find that those two things exist, we try to create a very formal way in which they are going to start generating and amplifying their referrability.
JJ: 14:16 And we start trying to use things like content as a way to arm their salespeople to open some doors and to help them do prospecting in ways that, uh, that they weren't able to do before rather than just looking at these other channels as some sort of disconnected new way in which you're going to, uh, um, to reach the market. And, and I think that that's, uh, that lesson is for a lot of business owners. You know, when I really get them to understand that it's almost a relief because I think one of the biggest stresses that a lot of small businesses feel today is they feel like they have to be in all 16 of those channels doing something. And so consequently they get in about 12 of them doing nothing. Um, and so, you know, narrow it down to two or three and use some of these things like social media or other kinds of newer tools to amplify those two or three that are already working.
MP: 15:06 I love that. So when we think of bookkeepers, one of the main one is is is going to be referrals. I mean there's not many bookkeepers that are going to tell you they don't get any referrals. In fact that in many cases it's the only way they're getting business is through referrals. So knowing that what would be your recommendation to amplify their referral business?
JJ: 15:28 Well, you know, a lot of people still are under the and, and you know, 30 40 years ago this was probably true. You did good work, people told people about you. But today, you know, we as business owners have all these channels. We'll imagine all of our customers and all, everything they're bombarded with. So we actually have to make it very easy for them to refer us. And, and typically when we go in and bookkeeper's a great one because there are three or four kinds of tried and true processes for referrals that, uh, that that can be used. Now I've, I put the big asterisk here, it's nobody's going to refer you unless you're doing great work unless they like what you're doing. Absolutely. You know, I wrote the referral engine and, and you know, half of that book, so some people kind of complained and said, well, I know this book in about referrals cause I spent about the first half of the book teaching people how to be referrable a because that's step number one.
JJ: 16:20 But once you have that, if you're getting referrals and are already because people are happy, you know, start doing things like making it part of the sales process. So when you go out and talk to a prospect, uh, start mentioning that, that you, here's what we agreed upon today. We're going to make sure that you are so happy with what we agreed upon today, that we're going to come back in 90 days and we're going to ask you to introduce us to three other business owners that you think could be needed to be this happy. Does that sound like something you would do Michael? And, and you know, every business owner that we get to do that as, as, as maybe cliche as it sounds. Um, you know, people agree. I mean if you think about it, you are promising that they're going to be happy, you're going to come back and make sure they're happy and at that point, you're going to help them make somebody else happy.
JJ: 17:04 I mean, who would say no to that? Obviously, you've got to perform, but that, you know, planting that seed, um, is one way that you, you start kind of getting the referral mindset in place, but also stay top of mind. I mean once a quarter mail all of your clients and give them some sort of tangible gift certificate that, uh, that they can hand to a friend or colleague because that's how referrals happen. You know, somebody playing golf and they go, ah, Dang, we need to do blah, blah blah. And then someone's like, oh yeah, I just got that thing from my, uh, my bookkeeper. So, you know, make sure that you're doing things to stay top of mind and keeping, you know, referrals kind of front and center. The other thing that, there's kind of two more, and um, I'm cutting me off if I'm rambling on loving, keep ongoing
JJ: 17:50 two more than I love to do. One is that if you have those clients that are referring, make sure that you are doing something for them, make them champions, create a, you know, if you're in a local environment where most of your clients are local, you know, create a couple of events just for them to take four or five of them out to lunch at the same time. Because if they're business owners in the same community, you, you're, you're rewarding them by basically creating some network opportunities for them. So, so really make sure that those people that refer, you know, how much you appreciate it. And I'm not a big fan of monetary rewards. Um, I think appreciation goes a heck of a lot farther in that type of environment. And then the, uh, the last one is that don't forget the opportunity for referrals from strategic partners.
JJ: 18:36 So often we get very focused on our clients. I mean, they, they know how brilliant we are, so of course, they're going to refer us, but there's that, you know, non competing business that also serves your ideal client, that perhaps you could start doing some things together, you know, content opportunities together, workshops together. Maybe you've created an incredible workshop for small businesses and the bank would actually love to have you come in and share your expertise. Well, that, that to me is a referral because that bank is essentially loaning the trust they have with their customers to put you in front of, uh, some, some potential customers. And the beauty of, of kind of really taking that approach is that, you know, uh, a client may have three or four friends that they could refer you to, you know, that bank might have three or 400.
JJ: 19:26 Uh, so, so think about building a, an entire team of best of class providers for pretty much everything that your customers might need, other services that they might need that you don't offer. Um, and start looking for ways to build a strategic partner platform almost or network, uh, because it could turn into your greatest source of referrals and it, and it also allows you, you know, when you have that client that says, oh gosh, you know, you know, I need, we need, you know, you're doing their books and it's clear, clear that they need a line of credit. Well, maybe you can actually connect them with that banker that you now have a relationship with and you'll increase your value with your clients.
MP: 20:12 It's remarkable. You've given some really, really great examples plus super ex, you know, for a bookkeeper to actually execute on these things. I mean, very straight forward. And you've really nailed it. Bankers. Um, there'd be tax accountants are accountants, but bankers, I mean, what a, what a great opportunity. And I, I know personally that bankers are always looking for opportunities to educate their customers and build relationships with their customers. So that's doing them a service by actually providing content that's valuable. Uh, as long as, as you say, you gotta be great and you've got to have valuable content and have a great presentation that's going to help them. But what a, what an excellent opportunity to not only find new customers, but to build another opportunity for referrals to come from these people that might not even be customers, but might've seen you speak and really liked you and said, hey, you know, I know somebody that you should maybe talk to. Really great opportunity out there for all of our listeners. Now you mentioned one thing you said, not only are they our listener busy, right? They're busy and referrals used to be, hey, you know, I'm going to refer you. And it's almost like the top of mind that it's so many different things happening in the world. Our customers are super busy. What do you find with your clients around their time and the ability to do some of the things that we're talking about? I mean they're time-starved.
JJ: 21:36 Yeah, I think, I mean we could have a whole nother show now on this question. Um, the biggest thing that we try to do, I mean, the reality is, and this is Kinda hard medicine for people to take, the reality is we waste about 75% of our time, uh, you know, checking email, doing things that, you know, we go down these rabbit holes. Uh, it's just really easy to get distracted. So a lot of what we try to do is help business owners get focus. And that's what a system really does. It, it doesn't necessarily mean that you don't ever look at any kind of incoming opportunity that might present itself. But instead of chasing everything and reacting to everything and feeling like you need to do everything, you know, we, we get them to identify, I like to take quarters cause I think 90 days or you know, it's great to have that five-year vision.
JJ: 22:27 But the fact that matter is, you know, looking out 90 days is, is pretty far for a lot of people. So we try to help them create two or three core priorities in that quarter and then we identity. So, so those are kind of the strategic objectives for the quarter. And then we try to identify, you know, what are the goals than to meet those strategic objectives, how are we going to track it? Um, and what projects or tasks need to come, you know, need to happen so that we can meet those objectives. And really, you know, the hope is that we will ignore everything else. That we will, you know, have a weekly staff meeting. We'll say, how are we doing on these objectives? You know, what's working, what's not working? Okay, go. Rather than, hey, anybody got any new ideas for what we should do this week, which is unfortunately how a lot of things happen.
JJ: 23:15 And, and you know, business owners are the worst. I mean, they go to a party or they read a new book and they come back with, you know, a whole list of new objectives. And so the focus is, is really, uh, the business owner's friend, uh, because there's so much of what gets our attention, uh, that shouldn't. And part of that equation I guess is to also understand, you know, what your best use of your time is. What's your highest payoff activities? And at the beginning of the day, if you're making up your to do list and about 70% of that stuff on your to do list is not very high pay off work. Maybe it's actually working you could get somebody to do for little or no compensation. I don't, I don't, I mean far a little far less than what the owner of the business should, should be counting on making.
JJ: 24:01 Then you, you've got kind of your list for start, you know, just start delegating. And I think that that, you know, that's what sucks a lot of business owners in so quickly. They get a couple of clients, hey, they've got time, they can do everything. The analysts and they get a couple more clients and some balls start dropping because they are still trying to do everything. So figure out what you can't do. What you shouldn't do, what you won't do, and start figuring out how to delegate those before you feel like you can even afford it. So it's focus and delegation. Those are the two keys.
MP: 24:40 I think it's great. And it comes back to what you said about looking first at what's already working. When we're talking about marketing, what's already working, there are two or three things perhaps and then amplify those. I just absolutely love that. So for the listener right now, look at your next 90 days. What's already working, where are you getting business from? Focus on those things, amplifying those things, make those work better instead of going and looking for something new or shiny or different that somebody else is talking about and just work what's already working. I love your exact come back to that example of the bank. You know, that is a, a massively leveraged opportunity where you think you could go into social media and you could start, you know, tweeting and putting posts on Facebook, but to actually have a bank put together a room full of potential prospects for you, and then you go and present for one hour or 45 minutes or whatever the case may be, and be able to be in front of live, real human energy in front of all of those people in that room.
MP: 25:41 There could be 10, 20, 1530 different people. The leverage opportunity there and the impact that's potentially going to happen is incredible. And so if one bookkeeper would just focus on building one relationship with one banker that's going to tee that up in the next 90 days. I mean, that could be extraordinary growth for the business right there. So focusing, doing what's already working and being really, really clear on who you want to attract into your business. This has been absolutely gold coming in from you, John. Yeah. And so now I want to say this is, you know, maybe we talk a little bit about duct tape selling because we've been talking a lot about marketing, but when it comes to selling that's a different animal and you know, you can attract them and have these, these referrals coming in, but to powerfully sell them and sell them at a rate that maybe is higher than what people would expect. What would you have to say about helping our bookkeepers who are typically introverted by nature? How would you help them with their selling?
JJ: 26:40 Well, I, I, I think one of the challenges we're selling is why I wrote Duct Tape selling actually is, you know, the subtitle is thinking like a marketer. So like a superstar. I think a lot of what I was trying to do with that was for business owners was get rid of this notion of what they think selling is. And unfortunately, we've all been a victim of, you know, this, the bad, you know, sales experience. And I think a lot of us feel like, well that's what we have to do. We have to go out and close people. And I think today, you know, selling is really about providing insight. It's about, first off, it's about educating people on what their challenges are and helping them come to grips with, you know, how they might solve those challenges. But then it's simply a matter of providing enough value upfront that they believe you are the obvious choice.
JJ: 27:27 And certainly a lot of what you can do with marketing is, is you know, you really, by raising your expertise, by raising your profile, by going out and doing this, speaking a, you know, all of a sudden you become the recognized expert and a lot of the kind of traditional convincing people they should buy from you kind of goes out the door. And, and what happens is, you know, people, you, you set up a situation where people want to work with you, that they understand, you know, how you're different. They understand, you know, that other people trust you and those other people, um, expect to pay a premium to work with you. And that's, that's one of the real values of the kind of raising your authority or your credibility in a market is that people do expect to pay more and the sales cycle gets really short because it's really a conversation about how you're going to work together rather than why they would pick you.
MP: 28:21 Beautiful. I absolutely love that. And it's, it's changing the thinking to more, uh, when we're marketing, when the listener, when the listener is marketing their business, it is about creating the knowledge and understanding and, and a 40 so that they're coming as buyers and they're coming as buyers that will pay premium. I absolutely love that. It's almost taking that whole conversation of selling out, you're creating buyers versus creating sales opportunities.
JJ: 28:49 Yeah. And a lot of it though is to understand, you know, what you do and who you can work with. Because one of the ways that you get really, really attractive to a buyer is that you start turning people away, uh, that you start saying, you know what, you're not a good fit. And it's not a, you know, an egotistical thing at all. It's your experience that has told you that you can't help that business. Maybe just because they won't listen or they won't do what you're, you're what you're going to ask them to. But the bottom line is once you start getting good at that, um, all of a sudden, um, you will find that you will spot the opportunities that are the right fit and you won't have to sell anymore.
MP: 29:25 Beautiful. You know, John, I'm looking at this list of books, duct tape marketing, duct tape selling the commitment engine, the referral engine. I'm thinking the listener needs to go to Amazon and do a book bundle. Buy All these books, get them onto their shelf. This really, if you're a small business or medium-sized business, this is required reading to grow your business. And if you're not into reading, go and get an ad audible app because I know most of, if not all of your books are on audible as well as that, correct? Right? They all are all on audible. You can listen while you drive into that next client. You can be listening to wonderful, powerful, actionable resources to grow your business. John, this has been absolutely terrific. Let our listener know if they want to find out more about you or they want to work with you or one of the wonderful consultants that you have all over the planet, how can they get more information?
JJ: 30:18 Well just start your search at Ducttapemarketing.com and that's d u c t t a p e marketing.com, and you can find the list of the consultants there. You can find the list of the kind of all the card services that my organization offers. We have a, a, a training course. You know, I do, I have a fact as a turning point when you listen to this, but a, at least today, um, you know, in about 15 minutes I'm going to do a, a monthly webinar that's part of our kind of system training course, uh, for, for businesses out there. So lots of ways for you to have to lurk and learn and get resources. But then obviously if you want to take some action, uh, there are lots of places for that as well.
MP: 30:58 Good. Excellent. Well, I'm a big fan. I've consumed a lot of your, your materials have been very helpful to me and so I look forward to seeing and consuming more of it and, and looking out onto the rise and what might be next. Jon, you've built a wonderful business and again, it's been great having you on.
JJ: 31:13 Thanks, Michael. It's great being here.
MP: 31:16 That wraps another episode of The Successful Bookkeeper podcast and what an excellent podcast episode it's been. To learn more about today's guest and to get access to all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com. Until next time, goodbye.