Experience.
Pure Bookkeeping Co-Founder & E-Myth Bookkeeper Co-Author, Debbie Roberts has been in the bookkeeping industry a long time.
She's made every mistake possible, but learned from them and eventually documented all her wisdom into systems she would use to successfully run her bookkeeping business.
Today, she's on the podcast to answer YOUR questions!
During this interview, you'll learn...
Why having a vision for your business impacts your future decisions
Why checklists can be a powerful way to keep your staff on track
Why bookkeeping startups should focus on one type of bookkeeping software
To ask Debbie questions in The Successful Bookkeeper Facebook group, join here.
To learn more about Pure Bookkeeping, visit this link.
To listen to the Lynne Moore Successful Bookkeeper episode mentioned, go here.
Michael Palmer: 01:11 Welcome back to The Successful Bookkeeper podcast. I am your host, Michael Palmer, and today we have one of the first episodes of its kind on The Successful Bookkeeper. We're actually going to ask questions of Debbie Roberts, who is the, the main character in the book. The Successful Bookkeeper and she is all the way from Melbourne, Australia. She has been bookkeeping for a very, very long time. She has grown her business from just herself to up to 12 bookkeepers and then exited that business by selling it. She has now helped thousands and thousands of bookkeepers around the world, grow their business, get more satisfaction from their business and have a heck of a lot more fun working in their business and on their business. Debbie Roberts, welcome back to the podcast.
Debbie Roberts: 02:07 Thank you so much Michael, and thank you for that introduction.
MP: 02:10 Yes, and I'm really excited about today's episode because we've been asking our listeners to ask us questions and give us information about what they need more help with and so we have a whole bunch of questions that we're going to tackle today, a from different listeners of the podcast and we're going to get your take on those questions.
DR: 02:35 Excellent. I'm looking forward to it.
MP: 02:40 Yes, absolutely. So, Debbie, the first question that we have is from Rebecca Stevenson from New South Wales, Australia, and the question is around time management. Now, Rebecca's biggest fear that she has in her business or biggest challenge that she sees herself facing is being swamped and needing help.
DR: 03:00 Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Time management is um, is a huge subject and lots of people have written lots of books and information and helpful tips about time management, but I actually would recommend that Rebecca think about getting back to basics when you're feeling swamped. It's very overwhelming. Uh, I was actually speaking to a bookkeeper this week who felt the same way and she was saying, I really, I can't take on more clients. I need to recruit but I can't recruit because I haven't got the systems in place. And she was really feeling quite overwhelmed. And then I asked her what her charge out rate was and she was charging 35 Australian dollars, which is a third really pretty much or maybe half of what she should be charging. She should be charging in the top quarter. So she's a huge way away from what she should be charging.
DR: 04:06 And I went, well, hang on a minute. If you're, if you are so overwhelmed, so swamped with clients who are, who are charging you $35 an hour, you could lose half of them and double your price for the others and have less work and more time and be charged, charging appropriately and earning a decent income. And she really, she hadn't thought about that. She just thought I needed to keep on taking clients at this, right. And I said, no, no, no, you're completely undercharging. And I was too when I started my business and I had to put up my prices every year for about three years, by $10 an hour in order to get up to a price that was reasonable. And when she thought about that and realized by, by, by doing that over gradually over a period of time and losing some clients that she could, she was happy to lose because they didn't value her.
DR: 05:01 That freed up more time. And just that one piece of advice helped her just calm down a little bit. You know, just, just, you don't have to, you can, you can actually say no. It's all right to say no to people when they, you don't have to say yes to everyone that comes on board. You want to be selective with your clients. The other point I'd make about time management is to be clear about what your vision is and what your strategic plan is. Where do you want to be in five years' time? I know this is kind of heading towards a, a conversation which we could have about creating a vision and what have you, but just very briefly. The reason that's important to be clear about where you want to be in, in five years time is because you'll be able to choose actions that will help you get there faster and you'll be able to then say to certain actions that are not going to be helpful to you and decisions that you're going to make.
DR: 06:03 So as I said, we could talk about vision in great detail, which we'll probably do in another podcast. But think about the vision. Get clear about your strategic plan, which will help you make decisions about saying no to certain actions that are not going to help you achieve that. Think about your pricing and whether you need to be putting up your charge at right on a practical level as well. I read a book by David Allen called getting things done, which was a game-changer for me. It really helped me work out how to manage the inflow of information that comes in via emails, paper, um, on Facebook, on, you know, everywhere, everywhere that we get information that comes into our lives. He gives you practical strategies to help you disseminate that information and work out what's important and how you deal with things. So I would really recommend that book.
MP: 07:01 It's a fantastic borough book and I would say David Allen is the leading authority on, on time management on the planet today. Anyways, there's been others, but right now it's helped. He's helped thousands and thousands of people around the world and, and I'd love to get them on to this podcast, Deb and seams. And we want to get all of the, the authors and people that have made a difference for you and, and a lot of our clients on the, on the podcast. Yeah. It was just this morning Debbie speaking with a friend and they had this question, how much should I charge for what I'm doing now? Totally unrelated business, not a bookkeeper. Um, they're doing something very different, but they had the question, I'm going to go and do this, this work. And it, it came back to exactly the same advice. If you, what's your vision? Where do you want your business to be in five years?
MP: 07:51 Because if you try and make decisions today without a vision, where's that going to lead you? You have no idea, right? It could lead you to somewhere great. It could lead you to somewhere horrible. And so I'm the person that gave some advice to this person, to this friend of mine, said that he'd been sitting on a plane next to a very successful entrepreneur that had opened business after business after business. As Cindy said, every single business I do, it's very simple. I figured out what's my vision, what do I want this business to do? Then I figure out what's the cost, the cost for me to produce the business, the, the actual output. And then I add the pricing has to enable me to do 70 or 80% gross margin a and then that's how I figure out what I'm going to charge. And so, you know, whilst that's a very simplistic model, I think the real message is that the key, the foundational key is knowing where you're going and that's the vision that you spoke of. So if, if the listener, if you don't have that vision clear in your mind of where you want to be in five years, 10 years, what's this business going to lead to you? What do you want to have in your life? What do you, you know, what, what kind of experience do you want to have that's a great step to take and the most essential step to take.
DR: 09:08 Yes, yes. And it just made me think of something else. Another point in relation to vision and, and charging and where you want to be. What I find is really common in the industry is that, bookkeepers who are good technicians and this brings in the myth and, and Michael Gerber's interpretation of a technician, uh, which is, uh, someone that's very skilled at the task of what they do. So we're great bookkeepers when we do that really well and we say, I want to have my own business so that I can earn more money, have more flexibility, and have a lifestyle that I want, which I don't get when I'm an employee. So that's there the common reasons why bookkeepers go into, into the business. But if you don't have a vision, you're essentially just buying yourself a job. And also then if you think all your soul charge as using this woman as an example, $35 an hour.
DR: 10:06 I said, you can't actually, it's, it's actually impossible for you to grow a profitable bookkeeping business charging that rate. You can't do it. I said, that's the right that you would pay your staff so you can, there's no margin. When you talked about a 70 or 80% that that gentleman, an entrepreneur, looks at what kind of margin. You know, there's no margin. And, and, and even if you're charging in the top quarter, you've still gotta be very careful about your, your bookkeeping, right? And what you, and your expenses and things like that. But you can't grow a profitable bookkeeping business charging that kind of rate. So don't bother. So if that's, if you're not prepared to put up your prices and, and charge accordingly, then you may as well just go and get a job.
MP: 10:52 Ah, Hallelujah. Hallelujah. I mean, some may be listening and thinking, Oh gee, that's a disheartening message. But for me, it's a, it's like a celebration. I'm so excited because it's the reality of the, of the, it's just the reality. And I, I've, I can't tell you how many, uh, bookkeepers that I've had a conversation with just like you, Deb, where they want to grow a business. And I asked them what the charge out rate is and it's just you couldn't hire somebody to do that at that rate. And it, it's just to think that you're going to try and run a business at such a low rate. It, it just that the math doesn't work. And I think that's why this is such a refreshing conversation for many is that they hear this and they go, ah, yes. Right. How did I not see that now?
DR: 11:43 Don't feel bad. Yes, don't feel bad. You're not alone. You see, there's this great saying is that you cannot read the label when you're inside the bottle and so you're inside the bottle trying to read the label. It's easier for other people to sort of see and, and, and have it now. That's the power of our community is that you get to bounce these ideas. You get to share and learn from people who've been there, done that. I mean Deb was inside the bottle, her cell try to read that label and Pete, you know, worked really hard and worked with you and you went through all sorts of changes in your life and transformational experiences and personal development to actually go, yeah, you know what, I'm worth a heck of a lot more. And, and, and it's, it's better for your customer as well because they're going to value it a heck of a lot more.
MP: 12:27 So yeah, we got kinda got a little off the time management question there, but I just want to say, I know a lot of the listener has already gotten the successful bookkeeper. They have the myth bookkeeper and there's a lot of gold in there, uh, in the EMF bookkeeper about building a vision and you know, creating that next step where you headed goals, goal setting. But literally, if you don't have it or if you haven't started reading it, chapter four in the successful bookkeeper is where do you want to go? Now that the whole chapter is devoted and tells a story of you, Deb, and how you created a vision and worked with Pete to do that. And, and the book comes with all sorts of um, tools to help you plan out your vision. So go to chapter four, make sure you read that. And I think that's a good tie. If you don't have the book, then get one. If we're giving away free copies, all you need to do is go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com/free book. Get a free book and we'll ship that out to you and you can get started and start building your vision. DR: 13:26 Yeah.
MP: 13:35 That was great. Deb, let's, let's move on to another question. How about it?
DR: 13:43 Yeah, love to.
MP: 13:45 Cool. So this next question is from Genevieve Dumont all the way from British Columbia, the interior of British Columbia. And her question is the management of my team, setting up engagement letters and value pricing plans. And I, and she would like to hear more of what systems, software, apps, other bookkeepers are using and as well how other bookkeepers manage and keep track of their team members and their work. Her biggest fear in business is letting your clients down.
DR: 14:13 Yes. And when when you create momentum with your marketing and you start to get clients and you're putting them on and you've got that part of it managed, it can be a little bit like a runaway train and you start getting more and more clients and you actually don't know how to turn that part off. It's a good problem to have by the way. But then, and then you start putting on your team and you, you know, maybe recruit, this is, of course, my story as well, recruit the wrong people and don't have enough systems in place. That was my, my issue, the managing of the team. It's absolutely critical that you have documented systems for the bookkeeping is done. It's the only way you're going to have a, be able to guarantee the quality of the work. So these are the way you do the bookkeeping.
DR: 15:01 So the reason you have got so many clients is that you're good at what you do and you need to be able to duplicate that in your team. And the only way of doing that you, the biggest mistake I made when I started recruiting made lots of them, but one of the biggest ones was assuming that the bookkeeper that I put on would do it the way I wanted to do it at the level that I wanted them to do it. And so assumptions, I made the wrong assumptions over and over again, or even making assumptions wherever it was, right or wrong. Uh, you just don't make any assumptions. You, you have to have documented systems for how the bookkeeping is done and they need to be detailed with checklists. So it's not just the training that you provide the bookkeeper, you need to have a checklist too with all the steps mapped out.
DR: 15:51 So even though you train them, let's say you get a bookkeeper and you train them, well, it takes months and months and months to train them. And then you, you think are, they'll just repeat that work now forever or you don't assume that they will do that because things can happen in their lives. They can get distracted. Sometimes personal issues occur, which just put them off their game for a bit. They need to have a checklist to come back all the time. So it doesn't matter how long they've been with you, they fill out the same checklist. This is how you prepare this thing, this is how you do this particular task. And so they send you that checklist and you are able to see, right? Yes, they've had actually done these things and they haven't forgotten any of the steps. So that's, that's really important that you document the systems, the backend systems to manage the workflow.
DR: 16:46 There's lots of software out there that does that. A zero practice manager is one Jet pack workflow. In fact, just recently I did a poll on The Successful Bookkeeper Facebook page about what software people are using to manage the workflow of their business. So if you Hashtag, um, survey on the successful bookkeeper, I, in fact, I do lots of surveys often to see what people are doing and you'll be able to, to see that. Um, and that's actually it got that got quite a big response and there are still people responding to that. So when you're thinking about your systems, just by the way, you know, with Pure bookkeeping, I wrote that over a period of 10 years. Then when, as I wrote that was constantly updated and we estimate that over that period of time, it was probably the equivalent of two years full time for me to write those systems. Huge amount of work in order to get that to the point that it is now a with pupil keeping in for the past seven years, it's, it's been constantly updated as well. So the past 17 years I've been writing systems and updating them and the result of that is the pure bookkeeping system.
MP: 18:03 And I think, uh, we had Lynn Moore, I think it's a great episode. If you haven't listened to Lynn's episode, it was just a couple of episodes back. Uh, we'll put it in the show notes, the actual link. What's amazing Deb, when you build those systems in and utilize those systems as a licensee, it just blows me away continuum. I just, because I believe so much in a system-dependent business and I've, I've always been such a big fan of Michael Gerber's work. I mean it's just, it makes sense and it, and it works and it, it's how to have a business that runs off of systems. And, and so hearing Lynn's story such a, uh, I think, uh, a testimonial to the power of systems is that when she was working with accountants, they, they thought she was the only one doing the work. And she's like, you know, I've got, you know, staff bunch of stuff.
MP: 18:57 Really. How, how do you get them to doll every, every file is exactly the same. How do you get them to do, it's the pure bookkeeping system. It's that every single person is doing it the same way and as well, documenting everything that's going on with every single client so that anybody can pick up where the last person left off and go and go at that. So, you know when, when we're talking about the mindset and how that impacts someone's mind when you're doing the work. I mean, I constantly, you know, not in just in in the the bookkeeping world, but any business, when you have a business that's really well-documented and has systems and processes for everything, everybody feels like they're just kicking focus on just doing great work instead of fake trying to remember what was done or not done. Yes. And so the stress levels go way down and, and, and enjoyment and satisfaction of the work go way up. Hey, quality and quality, right? Oh yeah, for sure. So that's great. I think that's, hopefully, that's helpful for Genevieve really. Um, a couple of things that we'll have links to as well in the show notes that Genevieve and breasts that the listeners can go to.
MP: 20:15 Let's go onto another question, Deb. Theresa, two wrong. And I'm hoping I'm pronouncing that correctly from Texas. And her question is how to start getting clients, this is, this is for a startup practice, uh, and maybe creating a niche and her greatest fear is really around, similar to Genevieve was questioned around software and how to set the business up.
DR: 20:42 Yes. Yep. The way I started in my business was proficient in one software in Australia. It's called NYOB and that would, they were the main players, uh, 17 years ago. So I became really good at that and I didn't, I knew there was other software around, so QuickBooks was around then, but I thought, well, I didn't have any, no one asked me for it. So I thought, well, I won't bother learning that yet. But I did after a couple of years. So when there was demand, when I started to get accountants saying, I've got a client on QuickBooks, do you know that? And then I had other prospects coming to me saying, I'm using this software. I thought, okay, there was a, there's a demand for that. I'd better learn that software. And because you learn one, it's not that hard to learn another. So I added that into my repertoire.
DR: 21:37 So I learned QuickBooks as our business grew and over the years we added other software platforms, a zero QBO, QuickBooks online in the latter part of my business as well. So you don't have to be everything to everyone. I think that's what, that's the main message with this, I believe. And that's something that I think with technology the way it is now, and it's so easy, you, if you're on Facebook pages and you see people all around the world using all this software, you can sort of, you think any few on you're using one, you'd be thinking on, um, falling behind or I'm not, I need to be ahead of the game. I need to know all these things. And then there's all these add-ons and things like that. It's, that is really overwhelming. So, um, as I said with Rebecca, get back to basics. Um, if you begin to get really good at one software package down, so choose whichever one is working for you.
DR: 22:36 Because if you try to diversify too quickly and you say, Oh yes, I can do all the, I can do all these software packages and you don't really believe that if you, if you know in your heart that you, you're not really confident within you, it's going to be a hard sell and it's going to be very stressful anyway. But when you're at a prospect presentation say, Oh yes, I can use all these different software, but you know really that you can't, you're hoping that you'll be able to, that's going to be not very convincing. So to be convincing for the prospect when you're starting out, learn one software really well and then you can say, this is the software that I use, and look, I know lots of bookkeepers that just specialize in one software and they actually use that as a, as a marketing strategy.
DR: 23:26 So whatever software it is, they say, no, I'm just going to say no to everyone else. I know this software really well. I'm not going to diversify. There's lots of business out there just with the one, I use this software, that's my expertise. And it does make it that it actually makes your life easier when you do if you're going to do that. So make a choice, choose one software, get really good at that and decide then whether you're going to gradually add other software to your repertoire or whether you're going to stick with one and you'll advertise that your market that as a, as a great thing that you are a specialist in this software. The other thing in terms of getting clients, you actually creating a niche isn't a bad idea in terms of where you target your market. Um, particularly with the startup, what I recommend is not to complicate it too much. I would recommend starting with, um, people like tradies. So contractors, plumbers, electricians, um,
MP: 24:33 I love what you, what you call us, uh, electricians in Australia. What is it again? Sparky's
DR: 24:40 Sparky's Sparky's. Yes, that's it. We call it a and chippies we call carpenters chippies. Um, and sparkies and you know, so yeah, we've got nicknames for just about everything.
MP: 24:51 For the listener. If you're not, if you haven't been to Australia, Australians have a nickname for every single thing. I think everybody on the planet knows Michael Late. And I remember, I remember being living down there and on the radio, the announcer said that Michael Bova lay and he's like, if he was an Australian, we call him Mickey bubbles. I just love it. Sorry to interrupt that.
DR: 25:15 No, no, that's it. Yeah. Um, so when your, uh, when you're looking at targeting your market and you're starting up, because typically you don't have confidence, and I'm making an assumption here to, but in generally speaking when you're starting out, you don't have a lot of confidence. So as I said, stick with one software that you know, that will give you more confidence. But if you choose clients who are smaller now typically these, these, they often don't have staff. It's in fact, it's a good idea to choose people that are just, they're working on their own or they don't have staff there. You know, I actually like tradies. I'm from two of my sons are Chinese and they, they're easy to get along with. And they don't know what they're doing in terms of their bookkeeping. And you can really help them set up some simple systems that will make their life a whole lot easier.
DR: 26:08 So they're, they're pretty easy to deal with. Other industries are like consultants, service-based industries. Again, people that don't have too many staff or maybe they don't have any staff choose those sorts of clients and say no to the others. If, if you get an accountant who uh, you know, refers someone that's got a 25 staff and inventory and, and you need to go on-site and uh, cause that's the other thing with these smaller clients, they usually quite happy for you to work from home as well. So you can do your research in your own time, in your own space without the pressure of then of someone looking over your shoulder and wanting the answer straight away. So there's ways and industries that you can move into which will make the transition a lot easier. And then as you get more confidence, you can add more things to your expertise as well. Like getting someone that has got one or two staff or getting into cash flow forecasting and budgeting. You can add those, which are great things to be provided with services to provide your clients. You can add those down the track once you start to build confidence.
MP: 27:17 Fantastic. Deb, I think a couple of things. There was an episode with Alan Salmon. He echoed very, very much becoming very proficient or an expert in a [inaudible] software. And it's just the whole, you know, the kiss rule, right? Keep it simple. Stupid is, and I think you could keep the stupid part out, but just keep it simple, right? Is to keep it simple. There are so much power and profitability and efficiency and simplicity and that if you're trying to be an expert in all software, I mean, maybe if you had a whole bunch of team members in the, each person could be an expert in those individual software, which is, is, is, is where a lot of people go, uh, is that they don't take it on themselves. They actually hire somebody who's, you know, maybe an expert in QBO and someone's an expert and zero and someone's an expert in sage or, or MYOB or QuickBooks.
MP: 28:11 But if you try to do all of them, it's how, how can you act? Expect yourself to actually know everything there is to know about that particular software. So, you know, making it hard for yourself, it's just going to cause more stress and anxiety and all sorts of stuff. And on the other side, it's like when you really know a software, your efficiency and your power and your quality go through the roof. So keeping it simple and, and that goes alongside the same conversation alongside a niche that if you are trying to be everything to everyone, how can you really be an expert in any of them? And there are beautiful things that happen when you work in a narrow-focused industry or no narrow niche or a sub-niche. Even that gives you the opportunity to really know what is the problems that they're all facing that makes you valuable to everyone in that niche.
DR: 29:05 Absolutely. And following on from that. There are so many add-ons now for specific industries that when you become an expert in that industry, you'll also know what, what add-ons are perfect for them. So when you go to meet with a prospect and you're an expert in this industry, you can say when you're setting up the systems, designing the systems for them, or you'll say these are the three software packages that are going to be the best for you. I'm an expert in all of those. I know how they are. They fit into this, this software that we're using and this is how it's going to create for you and solve all these other problems. So it's a really good idea. It's quite clever these days as well to make use of the adults and be and know them really well. But there's so many, there's just literally thousands of add ons. That in itself can be overwhelming because go back to basics. Always go back to basics. If I'm working on this client or in this industry, what are the top two, top three add-ons that are going to create efficiencies with this client? And now we'll love you for the river and refer work to you.
MP: 30:15 Yeah, that's, that's great.
MP: 30:24 You know, and, and I think it's definitely we're saying that there no answer fits every single scenario. Uh, and I actually, I have a, uh, maybe a side question to this for you. Deb is a, we have a client that is just getting started and she's in a really small community. And so if you, if you had too narrow of a niche in a small community, it might, you know, might only be a few of those particular clients in that, in that community. So what would be your, your thoughts for that person?
DR: 30:58 Yeah, I think, um, when you're in a small community, I think the opportunity there is re the remote bookkeeping to expand to, to advertise. So go to one of the online software, whether that be zero or QBO are the two main players and advertise outside of your community as well.
MP: 31:20 Beautiful. I think so. And I think the, that's great, great advice. And I think QuickBooks is a very, it's, I'm hearing a lot about QuickBooks in terms of their directory, their pro-advisor directory. A lot of people are getting business from that. So that's a great place to make sure your up and have all of your information and you know, obviously there are boxes you need to tick to be on that list, but something to look into and I will definitely make sure that, uh, our client has that, that view as well. Uh, as well external, uh, other communities that are close to you building relationships with other communities. That might be a bit of a drive, but if you spend a little bit of time getting to know people, you don't necessarily need to be there all the time, but it can be a way to get that remote business is in a few, a closer community.
DR: 32:08 Yes. Official.
MP: 32:10 Well, this has been great. Deb, we're just about up on time and so I think we will, we'll, we'll cap it there and we'll have you back again to do more questions and uh, and take it from there.
DR: 32:25 Absolutely. I'd love to.
MP: 32:27 Yes. Well, thank you to everyone that posted their questions as well. If you have questions, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com/questions and you'll have an opportunity to leave a question there or ask questions or comment and we'd love to hear from you and it really helps us design and deliver content that's valuable to you. So please do that. And again, thank you Deb so much for being on the episode today.
DR: 32:50 My pleasure. That wraps another episode of The successful bookkeeper podcast. To learn more about today's wonderful guest and to get all sorts of valuable free business-building resources, you can go to Thesuccessfulbookkeeper.com until next time,
Speaker 3: 33:08 goodbye.